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A few months ago, there were some articles and letters to the editor concerning whether or not power plants would have enough capacity to supply the electrical load added by electric vehicle chargers. Last month, California Gov. Gavin Newsom has told citizens not to charge their EVs in the late afternoon and early evening, and, even so, some parts of the state are being subjected to brownouts due to the power shortage.
For people who bought EVs, this is a real kick in the pants. Imagine having a $40,000 vehicle and not being able to drive it. Now Newsom wants to postpone the closing of Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant from 2025 to sometime in the future due to the shortage of power from all existing sources. Adding additional power sources will also mean additional, ugly power lines and poles to get that power from the power source to where it is needed.
Once again, the ones in charge have espoused this new method of transportation without thinking about what power infrastructure needs to be built so it is in place in time to have the capacity to handle the additional electrical load of EV chargers. It’s called planning for the future. Unfortunately for some, that future is now. Hopefully, other states will learn the lesson from California and will be ahead of the game, and not have their citizens put up with what the citizens of California are putting up with.
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Just a quick correction on the specs for the RAV4 plug-in hybrid:
It's a great car. In fact, a few months ago, when we bought a car to replace our 26 year old RAV4, the RAV4 plug-in hybrid (RAV4 Prime) was one of my top choices. We probably would have bought one (assuming we could have actually found one, and it didn't have $10,000 additional dealer markup/ADM) -- but it was my wife's turn for a new car and she wanted an SUV with a 'boxy'/squared off look, so the RAV4 (and most other vehicles) were out. We ended up with a Bronco Sport 'Badlands' (more capable AWD).
I think the RAV4 plug-in hybrid is a great choice. Toyotas are still very reliable (AFAIK) and the 100% electric/battery range is adequate for most local trips.
Here's the 'correction' -- the all-electric range is *42* miles (not 149). See Toyota's website for more:
https://www.toyota.com/rav4prime/
People have differing needs when it comes to vehicles -- but for us, 40+ miles of range is plenty to go to Weis or Costco, etc. In fact, I go to thinking about the potential problems that might be caused by fuel sitting in the tank for months, or even years. Sta-Bil and Chevron Techron can only do so much.
Anyway, it's a vehicle people may want to consider -- esp when prices and availability are better.
EV's will suffer the same fate as airplanes. An infant level technology with no infrastructure to support it. Playtoys for the 1%- the tech will never reach broad acceptance. My wagon gets 40 furlongs to the hogshead, and that's the way it will always be.
Ten years from now you will only be able to buy a new car that is EV. Drive your old car forever, if that is what you want. lol
And I'll bet you LIKE it, right? [cool]
White House Pledges Major Investment to Build New Electric Vehicle Chargers
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/white-house-pledges-major-investment-to-build-new-electric-vehicle-chargers/ar-AA11Q44R?fullscreen=true&cvid=43b17746043b4653bf839a720886c5f4#image=1
The federal government has approved spending $900 million to install new EV charging stations across 35 states, President Joe Biden said during an appearance at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.The investment will address a shortage of public charging infrastructure, which a recent Consumer Reports survey shows is one of the biggest barriers to EV ownership.Ad“The great American road trip is going to be fully electrified,” Biden told those in attendance, promising that tomorrow’s charging stations would be as easy to find as modern-day gas stations.
The push for charging comes on the heels of changes to a federal EV tax credit program that lifts the cap on EV tax credits and adds incentives for buying used EVs, and California’s announcement that the state will require all new vehicles to be EVs or plug-in hybrids starting in 2035.The new charging stations will be built along a corridor that spans the East and West coasts, Texas, the Upper Midwest, and several other states. It’s the first part of a $7.5-billion plan to build 500,000 charging stations across the country, a provision in the Biden administration’s Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. Currently, there are only 46,570 public charging stations in the U.S., according to the U.S. Department of Energy. The majority of these are Level 2 charging stations, which can take hours to recharge a vehicle. The proposal calls for higher-voltage DC fast chargers, which can add 100 miles of range in about a half-hour. That shortage of charging infrastructure is a major factor keeping Americans from buying new EVs. A nationwide survey conducted by CR (PDF) between January and February showed that about 6 in 10 Americans who weren’t already committed to purchasing an EV say concerns about where and when they could charge it (61 percent) have been holding them back from buying. In addition to road-trippers, apartment and condo dwellers often have to rely on public charging. “For many consumers, charging outside of the home is the only option for their vehicles, so these investments will give peace of mind to current and prospective EV owners that they will have the infrastructure available to fit their needs,” says Dylan Jaff, policy analyst at CR. He also says that the administration’s emphasis on installing more chargers along travel corridors and in rural communities would specifically help those who have not traditionally benefited from EVs.
I hope you don't hold your breath on that!
It was passed by Democrats with no Republican help!
To clarify my comment about driving long distance:
Of course one CAN drive across America in an EV. The question is, do you WANT to?
If you stick to a well-traveled route, you should have no trouble finding charging stations. Unfortunately:
* Not all chargers are compatible with all cars
* Not all are the faster DC chargers
* Some will be out of service
But overall, it should be relatively easy to find a suitable charger.
Assuming that's the case, the next question is how much time the driver is willing to spend on the road. For many people, a few extra hours added onto a coast-to-coast trip is no big deal. Those that just want to "get there" are liable to be frustrated by having to stop and recharge 10-12+ times, for a minimum of 1/2 hour (often longer).
The above applies to main routes. Those that like to (or must) get off the beaten path may have a very hard time. There are still places out West where the next gas station is well over 100 miles. And that's a gas station, not a charger.
Granted, in a pinch, you could probably pay someone to let you charge at an ordinary 120Vac outlet. That's a charge rate of about 3-4 miles per hour. Assuming a 350 mile range that's 100 HOURS, or about 4 days. You probably would not need to charge that long, but you never know.
I really like EVs, I just think it's important for people to have realistic expectations.
When every filling station has EV chargers and the charge times drop further there will be little if any downside.
For now, many if not most people stay close to home most of the time. An EV would certainly work for commuting and running errands. Many households have at least 2 cars anyway, so why not make one of them an EV?
Here are the new rules for tax credits
"There are plenty of changes to the new EV incentive rules. In short, expensive EVs will no longer qualify, automakers must assemble qualifying EVs in North America, and affordable used EVs will finally be eligible.
Buyers can now only use the EV tax credits on vans, trucks, and SUVs that cost less than $80,000. For all other passenger vehicles, like hatchbacks and sedans, the limit is $55,000.
Used vehicles will also qualify for a new, lower tax credit worth up to $4,000. Buyers can only apply the credit to a used EV that costs less than $25,000 and is at least two years old.
The IRA also sets personal income limits as qualifications for the new EV tax credit. Electric-vehicle buyers who make more than $150,000 yearly as a single filer ($300,000 for joint filers) will no longer be eligible. For used EVs, the income limits are $75,000 for single filers and $150,000 for joint filers.
The IRA introduced a series of new rules to encourage the domestic production of electric vehicles. Under the new regulations, a qualifying vehicle’s final assembly must occur in North America. Since automakers sometimes build the same model in different countries, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration offers a VIN decoder to reveal where the manufacturer assembled the vehicle.
Under the IRA, qualifying EVs need at least 40 percent of the critical minerals in their batteries to come from the United States or a country with which the U.S. has a free-trade agreement. This percentage increases until it reaches 80 percent for vehicles placed in service after December 31, 2026.
There are similar levels for the manufacturing and assembly locations for other battery components, starting at 50 percent before January 1, 2024, and increasing to 100 percent in 2029."
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-the-new-ev-tax-credits-work
So there are definitely tax credits available, but some mfrs may have a hard time meeting the domestic production and content requirements.
Some of the other rules may be restrictive for some buyers.
Unfortunately, in our personal situation, on the (very short) list of EVs my wife likes the appearance of, there were none below about $80,000 and most were $100,000++. They were out of the question. Also, because we drive so little, any operating cost difference is minimal.
I really do like the idea of being able to charge up at home though. If a more reasonably priced EV (SUV) that has the 'squared off' appearance she likes comes out maybe we'll trade in the Bronco Sport Badlands.
My wife and I have two cars, a 2012 Highlander with 48,000 miles and a 2020 Chevy Traverse with almost 5000….yes, 5000 miles on it. It’s too late now but there are lots of Seniors like us that don’t wander too far from home and an EV would be perfect for.
We don't drive much either phy.
We recently bought a new vehicle (the one it replaced is a 26 year old RAV4). We could easily get by with an EV, and that would be my preference (all else roughly equal) but this vehicle was for my wife and she had a specific boxy 'look' in mind so we ended up getting a Bronco Sport Badlands.
Needless to say, almost all EVs have that more aerodynamic 'egg' shape which makes perfect sense.
There are a few EVs that are more squared off, but they are all about 3x the price of the Bronco.
Because we drive so little, it really does not matter much either way (EV or ICE). If there were an EV with the look she wanted for about the same price, we might have gone that way.
Mr.nat, the new EV's come with a tax credit up to $7,500, if built in the U.S.
You can go more than local, Phy, the question I have is why do you want to pay for a new car when you have two with very low mileage and obviously are not spending a lot of money on gas.
Here are EV's with ranges estimated at 300 to 500 miles. Generally speaking the longer the range, the more expensive due to the battery packs needed.
https://www.cars.com/articles/electric-vehicles-with-the-longest-range-422227/
Electric Cars With the Longest Range
2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition R all-wheel drive: 520 miles
2022 Tesla Model S Dual-Motor AWD: 405 miles
2022 Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual-Motor AWD: 358 miles
2022 Tesla Model X Dual-Motor AWD: 351 miles
2022 Tesla Model Y Long Range Dual-Motor AWD: 330 miles
2022 BMW iX xDrive50: 324 miles2022 Ford F-150 Lightning: 320 miles
2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E RWD California Route 1: 314 miles
2022 Kia EV6 Long Range rear-wheel drive: 310 miles
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 Long Range RWD: 303 miles
2022 BMW i4 eDrive40 Gran Coupe: 301 miles
2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Mfg.$39,974 A battery-stuffed version of the nation’s best-selling vehicle, the Ford F-150 Lightning pickup aims to bring electric transportation to the American mainstream. The Lightning does just about anything a traditional F-Series can do, only better. It’s the fastest, quietest, smoothest and more torque-heavy F-150 ever to come from a Ford Factory. Extended-range models can do more than 300 miles on a charge while offering a beefy 580 horsepower and 775 pound-feet of torque. That equals an effortless, silent 4.5-second surge to 60 mph and a 10,000-pound tow rating. It does all this while offering all of the same comfort, infotainment and work features of the regular F-150. The biggest issue? Getting a spot in the 200,000-customer reservation line for Lightnings. 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-EPrice Starting From$43,895The Lightning’s highest 70 MPGe rating—or the mileage equivalent of a gallon of gasoline—destroys the Hummer’s 48 MPGe, and ties the Rivian R1T. This, despite the fact that the Rivian is much smaller. The Ford delivers a maximum 320-mile of range with its optional, 131 kilowatt-hour Extended Range battery; or 230 miles with the 98 kilowatt-hour Standard Range pack. Platinum versions, available only in Extended Range form, fall to 300 miles of range thanks to extra weight and larger wheels.Charging is fast, too. Using the Ford Charge Station Pro wall unit that’s free with Extended Range versions, the dual onboard 19.6 kW chargers can charge the truck from 15% to full in eight hours. DC Fast chargers, still rare, can move it from 15% to 80% in 41 minutes, but a 50 kW fast charger will take about 90 minutes to do the same.The FordPass charging app lets owners find and connect to public stations in Ford’s BlueOval charge network— part of an alliance with Electrify America and other existing networks—with more than 20,500 nationwide stations and 70,000 plugs, including about 7,300 DC fast-charging plugs.
2022 Kia EV6Price Starting From$40,900 The 2022 Kia EV6 is one of the best-looking and most affordable ways to get into a compact electric crossover, though it resembles more of a luxury hatchback than an SUV. Much faster models will be offered in 2023, but this year’s debut models are no slouches, with sub 5-second zero-to-60 times and very usable real-world ranges. The base-model Light offers 232 miles of range while the slightly pricier Wind offers up to 310. They’re efficient with their energy too, and the 800-volt platform architecture means quick charging. The EV6 rear-wheel trims turn in the equivalent of 117 MPGe for combined city and highway driving. The AWD trim comes in at 105 MGEe. The Model Y edges out the EV6 at 122 MGEe and the Ioniq 5 is third overall at 114 MPGe. A nearly depleted EV6 battery can be brought back to 80% of capacity in just 18 minutes on the newest and most powerful DC fast-charging equipment and under 40 minutes on most other fast chargers.
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5Price Starting From$44,000 At a GlanceCarsPriceMileageRating
2022 Lucid Air$77,400N/A City / N/A Hwy94 /1002022
Tesla Model S$99,990124 City / 115 Hwy88 /100
2022 Tesla Model X$114,990107 City / 97 Hwy88 /100
2022 Tesla Model Y$62,990127 City / 117 Hwy89 /100
2022 Ford F-150 Lightning$39,974N/A City / N/A Hwy90 /100
2022 Rivian R1S$70,000N/A City / N/A HwyReview not available
2022 Rivian R1T$67,500N/A City / N/A Hwy90 /100
2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E$43,895110 City / 96 Hwy90 /100
For those like Mr. Trunnel who were not paying attention, there are billions of dollars in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law for EV and grid infrastructure to address the exact point that Mr. Trunnel wants to see happen. I am hopeful he supports President Biden's efforts in this endeavor.
Apologies; Mr. Trunnell (left off one "l")
Power will be there! There are already wind mill farms. Take Maple Ridge Wind Mill Farm, it has 195 wind mills that will provide enough power for 88,000 homes. They recently added 20 and there are plans to put it another 60 or so. You can sit right below the wind mills and hear no noise and they are something that could easily be put up in the Catoctin Mtns. or S. Mountain. They use very little land and the land can still be used around them for agriculture.
Leasing a Nissan Leaf, I found it cost about $13.mo. for electricity to drive 600 miles when charging from home with a simple 120 line.
Don't like wind mills? Go to Linagnore Winery, they have solar panels set up to charge two EV's at a time, at no cost to customers. Go in and have some wine and food, stay two hours and find you have a charge to drive 25 miles from their 220 lines. Install them at home and pay about $3,500 for the equipment and installation and never pay for fuel again. Charge overnight and get enough charge to drive about 300 miles. And if you have a fast charger you can use a commercial 440 line and charge in half an hour.
Your boy from Cali - Newson, just stopped the shuttering of a nuclear power plant until who knows when (which is a good thing) and asked all EV owners not to charge during the afternoon and evening. It's only going to get worse. Shutting down nuclear plants is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. We don't get near the power we need from windmills and solar fields. The left has caused us some serious grief with power and it's going to get worse. Power stations needed for EV's to get where we need them to be will take years. There's being a realist versus being an idealist! A lot of Libbie's are idealists.
The problem is, Trek, that nuclear plants currently are too risky. Do you want government intervention? Having the government "pick winners" by subsidizing nuclear more than they already are? To be clear, I support nuclear, but you seem to want to complain without having a cost-effective solution. Most nuclear plants that have closed have done so because they are money sinks and the utilities cannot afford them. So what's your plan?
Shift-man - the technology for small, easily managed nuclear power plants is available. I just read about them a couple of months ago. Those make total sense as they produce the same power, are a fraction of the size of our older ones and cost a fraction as much to produce.
Oh yes, the technology exists but they are not cost effective. That is why the utilities always build big ones. Small reactors exist but take specialized fuel and that is not readily available (for example, nuclear reactors in the navy use metal fuel that are not allowed in civilian reactors because of non-proliferation concerns). I am a big fan of nuclear, but I am also a realist and know that the challenges for small nuclear is larger than the challenges for EVs.
"Level 2" home chargers are capable of about 25 miles of range per hour of charge time.
The typical person is probably home for a good 12 hours between work days. That's ~300 miles of range overnight!
That should be enough for almost anyone.
Most people have commutes that are no more that about 100 miles r/t. That's 4 hours of charging that can be timed to be done overnight, when the electricity demand is low.
Unfortunately, like almost everything else, this has turned into "EVs vs ICE vehicles -- Sunday! Sunday!! SUNDAY!!!" It's ridiculous. I grew up working on engines, and still like the sound of a V8 with dual exhaust, but EVs have a lot of advantages.
One thing I would not do is drive an EV long distance, except perhaps along a route with plenty of charging stations. Even then, the current charging times are on the long side -- for a long trip that would require multiple stops. That will no doubt be resolved, but until then gasoline or diesel vehicles are best for long trips -- especially to more rural areas.
One lady at the Middletown car show this spring said she drove her Tesla to Arizona and back with no problems. She did recharge every 250 miles.
Let's start with charging time and battery length. Right now, you've got a choice--just like you do if you have a battery charger at home. You can do a slower charge--like overnight at your house--or a fast charge, which is currently about 30 minutes. The current ave. range of an electric car is about 250 miles. Now they have already invented batteries that can charge in 5 minutes, and they are working on electric cars with a 400-miles range. There are already a bunch of companies out there with fast charging stations and web sites to locate them. (https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-charging-electric-car-battery-5-minutes-2021-1#:~:text=Electric%2Dcar%20batteries%20on%20the,manufacturer%20of%20electric%2Dvehicle%20chargers) for example. You can do your own search and find them.
Nova broadcast "The Search for Super Batteries" 5 years ago-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUljTN_M8c There were all sorts of innovations. And that was in Jan. 2017. Again, a search of Google or Youtube brings you to a host of videos and articles. Technology is not standing still--this is a hot field.
California has had an energy problem for years. Remember Enron and the scandal where they sold California electricity at many times the regular rate because California needed it?
Now why the letter writer said "...additional, ugly power lines and poles..." is a mystery.
Another strange statement is "...espoused this new method of transportation without thinking about what power infrastructure needs to be built..." First, you do realize that the first automobiles were electric, right? Second, mass production of electric cars began c. 1995--27+ years ago. This is NOT "new." Third, the US lags behind the rest of the developed world--including China--in adopting electric cars. In Norway, for example, 2025 is the deadline for sales of new cars with internal combustion engines. In 2020 75% of the new cars sold in Norway were electric. Sales of electric cars in Europe have been skyrocketing.
Now here we come to a common problem with the US. The US (or at least the vast majority of its residents) pretends that beyond our borders there is a vast wilderness. To the contrary--Europe leads in this and many other fields. While sales of electric cars was about 2% of the total in the US, it averaged over 10% in the EU--from 7% in Ireland to 32% in Sweden--and of course that 75% in Norway.
When we went to Paris in 2015 (so 7 years ago!) there were electric charging stations all over. Generally there were 3-4 stations in a row on a street. And of course one of the perks was that you could park there for FREE while you charged your car. A big deal in Paris! Now in the US I have to say I have never, ever seen a charging station. I'm sure they exist, but you didn't have to look for them in Paris. They were all over. And again, that was 7 years ago. There are now 752 charging stations in Paris, and 230,000 across Europe. https://chargemap.com/cities/paris-FR#:~:text=Come%20and%20charge%20your%20electric,located%20with%20the%20Chargemap%20map.
Right-wing critics keep saying "But electric cars use all that energy!!!" That's like saying "Why change to LED bulbs? They use all that energy!!!" Dumb, right? Same with electric cars. Sure they use energy--but a LOT less of it. US Dept. of Energy figures: electric vehicles convert 59-62% of their energy into power; gas powered vehicles convert 17-21%. In other words, gas-powered cars are only between 29-34% as efficient as electric cars in terms of energy used. And of course their efficiency gets better each year.
Finally, Rand Paul and his admirers complain about subsidies to renewable energy all the time. But I have yet to hear them complain about subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, which is about $20 billion a year. And then tax breaks, favorable laws, etc. etc. etc. If you want to eliminate favorable treatment for renewable energy, then do the same with fossil fuels. Don't be a hypocrite.
And if you missed it, this very issue of the Frederick N-P had an article titled "GM to convert Ohio factory to make electric vehicle parts." GM want to make ONLY electric vehicles after 2035. To say or imply there has been "no planning" is ridiculous. Thousands or even 10s of thousands of very smart people have been planning all this for decades.
I could go on, but feel free to ask Google any questions you may have. It just takes less than a minute to find out the answers.
mam: Excellent contribution. I also dio not see "ugly power lines and poles" but also wonder why HOA is so set against antennas in neighborhoods. There may be a new esthetic that I never learned. Are all useful devices also ugly?
Gary, just get a EV, never worry about gas price again, never stop at a gas station, if charging from home, and never pay federal and state gasoline taxes - although most states and the federal government are working to get more taxes from EV's.
Just worry about disposing of it and the batteries when the EV reaches EOL. It'll get buried somehow.. Forest for the trees!! Our best bets for the future right now are hybrids - less battery waste and much better overall mileage capability. No battery anxiety either.
Trek; EV batteries do not get thrown in a landfill. They get reused and recycled.
Shift-man - that's not what I read - they are like any battery, very tough to recycle.
I see you didn’t address what it takes to create EV batteries. I also didn’t see where you addressed EV battery live or EV battery disposal. My guess is you either don’t know or you don’t care because the elements necessary to create batteries are not being mined in your backyard. Likewise the disposal of batteries will need to be planned or thought out, but like our brain dead president we’ll charge ahead and worry about the consequences later.
Piddle, disposal is a problem - to some extent. Please read this:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/ev-battery-recycling https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/electric-car-battery-disposal/ Old EV batteries can be repurposed to power other devices and systems.For example, spent electric car batteries can be used for solar panel and household energy storage. They can also be used to power electric forklifts, power grids, construction sites, and more. However, the battery’s reuse application depends on how depleted it is. A ‘Grade C’ battery cell, for example, can only be used to power systems with low energy requirements. B. RecycledBoth lithium ion and lead acid batteries used in electric vehicles can be recycled — to a point.Approximately 90% of lead acid batteries are recycled. But in lithium batteries, cobalt is the only valuable material worth recycling.Consequently, the recycling process for lithium ion batteries is still being refined since many recycling facilities lack ways to repurpose the remaining material. C. Stored AwayThe costs of recycling batteries are high, so many scrap yards and recycling companies avoid doing it. Alternatively, old batteries are stored at facilities like Spiers New Technologies in Oklahoma. However, there are risks with doing this since damaged or defective batteries can cause fires. Learn more about how to dispose of a battery in a non-electric car.Let’s take a closer look at recycling methods.Electric Car Battery Disposal: How Does The Recycling Process Work?There are three ways to recycle electric batteries:Pyrometallurgy: The car battery is exposed to high temperatures, destroying the organic and plastic components. The remaining metal components are separated by chemical processes.Hydrometallurgy: Liquid chemical solutions are used to separate the battery’s components. Pyrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy can be used together to recycle batteries. Direct recycling: Recyclers vacuum away the electrolyte and shred battery cells. Next, they use heat or solvents to remove binders and a flotation method to separate anode and cathode materials.The benefit of this method is that it keeps the cathode mixture intact. But direct recycling has only seen minimal results and needs further refinement to be considered a viable recycling method.Despite being costly, let’s find out why EV battery recycling is of particular importance.Why Is It Important To Recycle Electric Car Batteries?It’s crucial to keep electric car batteries, especially lithium ion batteries, out of landfills because they are highly toxic and flammable. Additionally, by recycling batteries, facilities can reduce the need for raw material, including cobalt, nickel, and lithium.Why’s this important?The mining process for every raw material can lead to soil, air, and water pollution. For example, lithium extraction can result in significant water supply disruptions for local communities in Australia and Chile.The EV battery production process also emits high carbon dioxide (CO2) levels. For example, producing one battery with a range of 40 kWh (e.g., Nissan Leaf) emits 2920 kg of CO2, while a 100 kWh (e.g., Tesla) emits 7300 kg of CO2.With these compelling facts in mind, let’s go over some FAQs.Electric Car Battery Disposal: 5 FAQsHere are some typical electric vehicle battery disposal questions and their answers:1. How Do Lithium Ion Batteries Work?A lithium ion battery contains individual lithium ion cells with an electric charge. When the car’s recharging, electricity is used to make chemical changes inside the batteries. When it’s being driven, the battery pack powers the electric motor, turning the wheels. 2. How Long Does An Electric Battery Last?In the United States, electric vehicle batteries come with a warranty lasting five to eight years. However, current estimates show that many electric vehicle batteries can last up to 10–20 years before depleting. 3. Which Are Some Of The Best EV Battery Recycling Companies?Here are three of the best recycling companies across the globe:1. Redwood MaterialsRedwood Materials is a battery recycling company in Nevada that focuses on retrieving, recycling, and recirculating crucial battery material like copper, nickel, and cobalt. Redwood is working with Ford Motor and Geely Automobile’s Volvo Cars to recover materials from spent electric batteries so they can be used to power new batteries.2. Li-CycleLi-Cycle is a lithium ion battery recycling company with the goal of making electric vehicle batteries truly sustainable products.This company only uses the hydrometallurgy method to recover more than 95% of all minerals in lithium ion batteries.3. Ascend Elements Ascend Elements is an innovative battery manufacturing and recycling company that uses recycled material from old lithium ion batteries to produce new battery products. Their patented Hydro-to-Cathode™ technology produces new cathode materials from old EV batteries more efficiently than traditional methods. This way, they can return critical minerals to the battery supply chain. 4. What Are Some Challenges Faced In EV Battery Recycling? Here are some of the challenges that electric car battery recycling facilities face: A. Time-Consuming ProcessesEV batteries come in various shapes and sizes, making the disassembling and recycling process time-consuming.Unfortunately, this also raises the cost of the battery material to the point where battery manufacturing companies prefer buying new battery materials over recycled material.B. Expensive Transport CostsEV batteries are costly to transport. In fact, transportation charges account for approximately 40% of the total recycling expenses. Why are electric car batteries so expensive to ship?The lithium in EV batteries makes them highly flammable. As a result, they need to be stored and transported correctly. Not doing so can lead to fire risks, fatalities, profit losses, and more. C. Hazardous Waste Concerns The recycling process for lithium ion batteries leaves behind a ton of leftover material (manganese, nickel, and lithium) that’ll eventually end up in landfills. Additionally, both pyrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy require a lot of energy and create hazardous waste, further polluting the environment. 5. What Are The Policies Around Recycling Electric Car Batteries?Given the high costs and time-consuming processes associated with EV battery recycling, academics from global institutions, like the Argonne National Laboratory, are working to regulate and optimize recycling processes.Additionally, The US Department of Energy donated $15 million to a ReCell Center to help coordinate scientific studies in academia, industry, and government laboratories. Here are some potential policies and regulations that could be introduced to boost EV battery recycling rates:A. LabelingMost EV battery packs contain little to no information about the cathode, anode, and electrolyte. As a result, recyclers have to spend time finding this information. To speed up the process, every EV battery pack must contain content labels to help recycling facilities automate the sorting and processing stages. B. Design StandardsCurrently, there is a wide range of designs for lithium batteries, making it difficult for recyclers to determine how to move each battery through the process.By having a single or a handful of regulated designs, recyclers can reduce the amount of manual effort needed and maximize output.C. Co-LocationEV batteries are expensive and heavy to ship. As a result, industry experts are considering co-locating recycling facilities with EV battery production sites. This way, electric car prices will drop, and recycling sites can do their jobs efficiently. Wrapping UpElectric car batteries are highly flammable and must be disposed of properly to avoid environmental and health risks. If your electric vehicle battery is reaching the end of its lifespan, contact a professional battery recycling facility or experts who can help you repurpose or store the battery. However, if you notice performance drops in your electric vehicle or experience other drivability issues, get in touch with RepairSmith.RepairSmith offers convenient online booking with competitive pricing and a 12-month | 12,000-mile warranty on all auto repairs. Contact us, and our expert mechanics will drop by to fix any issue with your electric car in your driveway!
Creating EV batteries:https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/making-of-ev-batteries The massive 300-550 kg battery packs that go into electric cars are probably the most important component by far, just like the importance of an internal combustion engine to a traditional car. However, the journey that these lithium-ion batteries make when being produced is a very interesting one: from multiple (sometimes unsafe) mines in far-off countries to being packaged into a powerful, high capacity battery which can drive a car forward at very high speeds.So how exactly are these lithium-ion batteries for electric cars made? The short answer is that a number of rare metals need to be dug out of the earth from various mines. These are then packaged into small individual battery cells (alongside other materials such as plastic, aluminum, and steel), before themselves being packed into battery modules. The end result is a battery pack which is made up of multiple battery modules, a cooling system/mechanism and a small electrical power management system.Let’s explore some of this in more detail below!
Read the rest from the website.
Dorky, you didn’t answer the mining and refining question? Are you ok with the environmental destruction caused by the amount of minerals needed for each battery not to mention the toxins created during manufacturing.
pdl; no matter what source of energy, we will need to mine and refine. That includes all metals used for everything. Drilling/fracking is mining as well, and it has some severe downsides. What is your complaint? That batteries are imperfect? Of course, they are, but they are still an improvement on non-renewable, finite resources.
Piddle, do you know what drilling for oil does to the air and land? You must have read about oil spills, especially those in the Gulf. And taking oil out on land is no panacea either. As far as batteries are concerned, most of them can be disposed of being elements that are not recyclable like plastic. There are rare metals, such as cobalt. Plastic, aluminum, steel and cobalt are recyclable. Yes, any mining from coal, steel, aluminum, etc. disturbs the earth. To avoid that, you can go back to the horse and buggy days, if you want to, Piddle
I do know what it does to the earth, but I also know what irresponsible mining ( open pit mines, etc. ) do to the landscape. Unfortunately, the chinese have cornered the market on lithium and cobalt. Do you think their environmental record is a good one?
pdl, the Chinese have not corned the marked on lithium and cobalt. They dominate in the processing of these materials, but the supplies are not in China.
Absolutely agree, shiftless. We have one of the world's biggest deposits of lithium here in the US, as the Salton Sea is drying up. It is also estimated to be the "greenest". Warren Buffett is heavily invested in this area.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2022/05/13/lithium-valley-look-major-players-near-salton-sea-seeking-billions-funding/9665978002/
PDL - Cause they're all idealists - reality is much different. DickDo and his ilk live in some make believe world!!
Have you had a EV, Trek? I have!
I've rented them - they're ok, but charging was a royal pain (read none). I'm into hybrids - that'll be my next SUV. I personally think that's our best bet.
Trek, if you are going to get a hybrid car for your next one,, get the Rav4 hybrid plug in, it gets up to 149 miles on battery power alone and you almost never need to buy gas, but you can use the gas for long distances. The problem right now is finding one and the price, because dealers are not discounting them.
Thanks Dick - appreciate the insight. I'm a Honda guy though. Supposedly Honda will have a Mid-size (read bigger then the CRV) with a hybrid system in the next year or so. The CRV Hybrid is like the RAV4 but it's too small for us as we ski every weekend in the winter and go to the beach in the summer and need the extra space. 👍
I'll jump in again. You're right, let's not ignore battery manufacturing, life, and disposal.
First, let's all make a mental note that their are already hydrogen-fueled vehicles available; no batteries. This means you fill your tank with hydrogen just like you filled it with gas. No extra time needed. And yes, sure, there are issues there, too. Hydrogen is now produced from coal and natural gas, and we don't want that, do we? But they're working on it. Remember H2O? A lot of hydrogen out there....oceans of it.
Back to ion-lithium batteries. In my own earlier post I mentioned the fact that a host of companies are working all sorts of different types of batteries. See that Nova show from 7 years ago. And yes, lots of nice technology (probably all of it!) depends on mining rare substances in strange places. But such mines have been--and could be--in the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil, etc. It's a matter of cost and policy. As for disposal, feel free to do a search for "disposal of ion lithium batteries" on Google. I came up with 2,650,000 hits. Battery life? There seems to be a large range; 500-1,000 cycles seems to be a good average. Here's a nice scientific article on 'cycles': https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/cycle-life Just like a lot of the batteries we're familiar with (camera batteries, phone batteries, etc.) it all depends. If you drain a battery 99% and then re-charge it, it's not going to last as long as a battery where you use 20% and then re-charge it. And as for 'life', that's another iffy term. The end of its 'cycle life' means it can only re-charge to about 80% of its original capacity. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it simply doesn't work as well. It only matters if you care. I certainly haven't ever cared about my re-chargeable camera battery.
I have to say I get annoyed (!!!!) by all these comments--not just on this subject, a lot of subjects--that assume science and technology does not progress. It's like someone in 1900 ranting that "it's so inconvenient to crank the motor every time you want to start your car!" And they would have been right. You had to hand crank the engine. But voila! they invented the automatic starter. By 1920, virtually every car had an automatic starter. Problem solved. And you could run through a host of other issues with cars that got solved by advances in technology...power steering, automatic shifting...etc.
And even worse, people write that no one has 'thought' about these things. Visit one of the many think tanks downtown. That's what they do. They think about these things. And so do thousands of universities, organizations, and companies around the world. If there's one thing we don't have to worry about, it not "Gee, no one has thought of this." They have.
A free (!!!) resource not many non-academics are aware of is www.academia.edu. A very quick free registration gets you free access to papers, dissertations, reviews, articles, books.... from scholars all around the world. (Ignore the premium subscription, you don't need it.) So just for fun, I did a search in academia.edu on "disposal of Lithium ion batteries". I came up with 65,272 academic papers on the subject. That's not exactly "No one has thought about this." https://www.academia.edu/search?q=disposal%20of%20ion%20lithium%20batteries
H2O splitting is a sound method as well as biomass options. Fossil fuels are necessary for the foreseeable future. Like anything else in academia they seem to bend to the whim of those who pay there bills.
mam -- I'm not sure such rational comments are allowed here. [cool]
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" Laozi
Gotta start somewhere, pdl. If we never start the R&D, we will never reach our goals. Although current battery technology is difficult to recycle, future technologies in development will be much more amenable to recycling. Just because we aren't there yet, doesn't mean we won't ever get there.
Piddle the future of batteries is going to be great!
Top 7 Lithium Battery Alternatives (Future of batteries)Ana LejtmanBSc. in ChemistryJan 27, 2022 https://climatebiz.com/lithium-battery-alternatives/
Here are some of the pros and cons of Lithium batteries:Pros:
Wide range of applications for small, portable devices
High energy density, when compared to other existing batteries
Cons:It contains hazardous materials, making proper disposal difficult
Limited and relatively short lifespan
The ability to hold charge fades over time
Not cost-effective for grid integration
One of the most promising Lithium battery alternatives is the solid-state battery.Although it still contains lithium, the key difference is the physical state of its components. This technology uses a solid electrolyte, instead of the liquid/gel found in traditional Lithium batteries.This slight difference makes it much safer; by eliminating the risk of contact between the electrodes, overheating and combustion are no longer a concern.But that’s not all. Using a solid electrolyte, the battery becomes much more compact, leading to a higher energy density. It also may be capable of recharging much faster and performing more cycles.Many companies are investing large sums of money into this technology – Toyota, Volkswagen, and Samsung, to name a few. But even though it sounds great in theory, finding a solid material that doesn’t easily crack while still allowing lithium ions to move through it is not an easy task.
Founded in 2011, a company called QuantumScape claims to have developed an excellent ceramic material to act as a solid electrolyte. While still a few years away from being commercially available, they promise better life performances, 15 minute charge times, and lower costs They aim to have electric vehicles driving with these cells by 2024!
2. Redox Flow Battery Imagine having a battery with a lifespan of over 20 years, with no decrease in performance over time! That’s what Redox Flow batteries promise. And this technology is not just a thing of the future, it’s already becoming available in the market!
This technology shows great potential to integrate renewable energy systems into the grid.The theory is quite simple: the surplus of renewable energy (solar, for example) would be used to break down molecules of water, forming hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. This hydrogen would then be stored, under pressure or as a liquid. With the help of a Hydrogen fuel cell (see image below), the stored H2 reacts with O2 to produce clean energy, with the only by product being pure water.
Imagine charging your electric car in a couple of minutes. This might possibly be closer than you think!
Graphene Manufacturing Group (GMG), an Australian company, partnered with the University of Queensland to develop a novel battery technology, the Graphene Aluminum-Ion battery.In this battery, the cathode is graphene, a material known as an amazing conductor, while the anode is a foil form of Aluminum, which is earth’s most abundant metal. It stores and discharges energy in a similar way as the Lithium Battery.When lithium oxidizes, it releases one electron, becoming Li+. Aluminum, on the other hand, releases three electrons, becoming Al3+. This allows Al-ion batteries to increase storage capacity, being more energy-dense than Li-ion.
One of the drawbacks of the Li-ion batteries is that they can take quite a long time to charge.Super capacitors offer a great alternative given their ability to charge and discharge much faster. However, they can only hold small amounts of energy when compared to Li-ion batteries.If the storage capacity of these super capacitors could increase, they could compete with Li-ion batteries.Research shows that one of the ways to achieve this is by using a highly porous form of graphene with a large internal surface area.A graphene supercapacitor can store almost as much energy as a lithium-ion battery, charge, and discharge in a matter of seconds, and perform tens of thousands of charging cycles, offering a great option in terms of integration with wearable and portable technologies.However, costs are still high in comparison to lithium batteries, so they are still far from commercialization.
6. Liquid Metal BatteryAmbri, an American start-up company, claims to have found an efficient and safe solution to the global problem of grid storage.Components of this battery’s cell:– liquid calcium-alloy anode– molten salt electrolyte– cathode made of antimony. These components are solid at room temperature, making the cell inactive.With the supply of energy (from renewables, for example), heaters within the system activate the cells by heating them up to their operating temperature (around 500ºC). This causes its components to melt and become reactive. Through redox reactions, energy can be stored, and later discharged.
Ambri cells are not explosive, combustive, or sensitive to temperature. They use non-degradable, low-cost materials, made to last for 20+ years. This makes them an efficient candidate for grid-scale applications, something that the Lithium Battery isn’t.
Closing our top 7 Lithium battery alternatives is an innovative technology that uses one of the most abundant elements on earth: iron.“Reversible rusting” is the principle behind the iron-air battery and it’s incredibly simple. Each cell contains a metallic Iron anode and an “air-breathing” cathode, immersed in a water-based, non-flammable electrolyte.As it discharges, the battery “breathes in” oxygen from the air and oxidizes iron metal to rust, releasing electrons. While charging, an electrical current is applied, converting the rust back to iron and “breathing out” oxygen.Due to it being heavy, this technology won’t replace Li-ion batteries in smartphones or electric vehicles anytime soon. But as a stationary, utility-scale battery, it can be a cost-effective, non-toxic and safe solution.These batteries are modular and scalable, which enables integration into the grid. They require approximately 1 acre of land to generate 1 megawatt, with 3 megawatts per acre configurations being possible.Based in Massachusetts, Form Energy is the company behind this technology. They claim these battery systems can be placed anywhere, even in urban areas, discharging not for hours, but for days at a time. Final Thoughts
As of now, we are far away from the limits of what a battery can do. But predictions show that by 2040, the energy storage market will have attracted around $620 million in investments, so there’s hope for the future.Time will tell which one of these alternatives (or something else entirely) will replace the Lithium battery as the world’s most used rechargeable technology.
Thank you for the list! There are a lot of smart people out there, and I have no doubt that the batteries of the future will bear little resemblance to batteries today.
Biden brain dead? No criminal charges against him and there will be soon to the cult hero, Trump. lol
What do you call it, Dorky? Incapacitated?
If there was a real justice system in the USA and one not corrupted by the current administration there may be charges. Why are there so many FBI whistleblowers now? Oh that’s right the lap dog press won’t print the truth about how corrupt this administration is.
Biden had a problem as a child speaking clearly because he stuttered. Trump has a problem knowing and speaking the truth. A.G. in New York wants him for fraud!
Having a grid to take care of all our planned vehicles will take a masive investment. Many people with some land or roof top area are using solar cells and home batteries to store electricity for charging their vehicles at night. Even in Frederik County do they do that.
"If you want something done, do it yourself."
I know when I stop for gas it takes less than 10 minutes. How is that going to work for EV's that take hours?
If I had one and drove to work, I would charge overnight and work closer to home. If I had to drive distances, I would not have an electric vehicle. Fast charge vehicles are still in the future.
No they are not, Gary, they have been here for about 10 years, just not many of them. An EV will beat any gas vehicle starting off because they do not need to develop power, it is already there in the batteries. And there are some EV's that will go 300 miles or more on a charge. No need to work close to home.
It is somewhat of a problem but the solution is to only charge at commercial charger when needed and you can get a charge from a fast charger in half an hour. You do wear out tires quicker on a EV because of the battery weight.
For a full explanation go to:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/ev-charging-time
Reader, most drivers of EVs NEVER stop at commercial chargers. Or if they do it is a few times per year. So add up all those 10 minute stops and you will find that you stand around while your car refuels far more than most EV drivers.
That's BS, - if you have a EV and drive I-95, the charging can take hours - just waiting to get to a charger can take hours as they are all backed up. The NY Times did a whole test with their own people. It was a cluster according to the journalists that participated. When I get a new vehicle for my wife, it'll be a hybrid for sure!! My car is a '22 gas only but gets around 24 - 25 mpg with a bad-ass V6 putting out 300HP. Sweet!!
Most drivers, including most drivers of EVs, do not drive more than about 40 miles per day. So you just charge at night and have a full battery in the morning. Sure, once or twice a year they make a longer trip with the EV and have to charge up for 45 minutes or so at a rest stop on I-95. But again, over the long run they probably spend less time standing at a fueling/charging station than you do.
And Trek, given your decision I will discount any whining in the future you do about high gas prices, since you JUST made a choice to drive a car that is inefficient (which is fine, but YOU have to take responsibility).
40 miles a day? Geez, what a goober no wonder you are so locked into the left wing hot steaming dish of bull manure. You got to get out and see the world and all the destruction your party has created.
My 2015 hybrid gets 40 mpg and it is a full size car.
pdl; these are facts. You can easily look this up, but because you probably won't, here is a link for you: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1007157/us-daily-miles-per-driver/
Shifty - I do, as it was my choice and love the sound of kicking ass (dual exhaust). One thing no one mentioned or I didn't see is that EV's are still quite expensive. The average American will not be able to afford what's out there now - especially those that live in the country. I saw comparisons to Sweden - folks, you can fit Sweden into Texas (almost) - no comparison. Plus they only have 10 million people and the majority live south around metro areas. . Again, no comparison. It's going to be a while before we're really ready for EV's for the nation. I'm a little old school and am not ready for an EV by a long shot. I like ICE cars, that's what i grew up on, my dad taught me to wrench when we rebuilt a '47 Ford Flathead Coupe - it was fun as sh_t. Have any of you ever driven a bad-ass corvette, or a Mustang GT, or a killer Camaro SS, a Porsche, a Maserati, a Ferrari? If you haven't I feel sorry for you because those machines are what driving is all about. I didn't enjoy driving the EV I rented a little while ago, the novelty wore off in seconds! But that's my humble opinion.
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